Wordfeud League of Honour

Thank you very much for your work, Fiebjorg and Sfsimon.

Den enkleste tingen først: At folk utenfor 1. divisjon deltar i diskusjonen, er helt uproblematisk. Det er her den føres, enkelt og greit.

Og det er første gang diskusjonen løftes fram fra krokene på Facebook og chat. Så det overrasker meg ikke at den får litt temperatur. Jeg har ikke valgt å avstå fra juleforberedelser en adventslørdag for å sitte klar til å slette eventuelle innlegg som er over grensen. Og det synes jeg ikke jeg skal føle meg forpliktet til heller.

Å avsløre juks i yatzy er svært vanskelig. At den ene saken der det har vært gjort en undersøkelse, ikke er avsluttet, avspeiler nettopp det. Men vi jobber med saken så godt vi kan, med de midlene vi har til rådighet, og vi prøver å snu de steinene det er mulig å snu. Jeg skulle ønske vi kunne komme til raske og sikre beslutninger, men det kan vi foreløpig ikke. Derfor har Lobotommy gått ut med sin oppfordring, og jeg er overbevist om at de aller, aller fleste av oss følger den.

Men om jeg skulle ønske meg noe, er det at vi bruker diskusjonen til å tenke høyt på hvordan juks kan unngås, heller enn å slå hverandre i hodet og sparke på leggen, enten det slås og sparkes fra den ene eller den andre siden.

Forøvrig: Dommerne i yatzyligaen er Sfsimon og Fiebjorg.

Ligaen har en egen prosedyre der man mistenker juks. Så vidt jeg vet er denne kunne benyttet 1 -en- eneste gang. Det kom da e-post om en konkret person, og at flere enn en spiller mistenkte vedkommende for juks. Undersøkelsene ser ikke ut til å ha bekreftet bekymringsvarselet fra disse "flere enn en". Det ser ut til at andre spillere ikke har reagert på det disse "flere enn en", hadde reagert på. Flere enn denne ene henvendelsen har ikke kommet, på tross av et en gruppe personer "VI","VET" at 3-4 i denne divisjonen jukser. Jeg er kjent med at flere av de personene som har ytrer seg deltar i en lukket gruppe på facebook om juks i yatzyligaen. Hva disse personene i fremtiden måtte synes å mene i en slik eventuell undersøkelse, bør etter dette ha minimal vekt. Synspunkter fra personer som uavhengig av hver andre kan ha reagert på noe, har en helt annen verdi enn synspunkter fra deltakere i en gruppe som har diskutert dette på forhånd og dermed påvirkes av hverandres mistanker. Suggesjon og lynsjemobb er passende merkelapper.

På klimaets dag, er i allefall ikke det lokale klimaet i denne gruppen særlig bra. Hovedsaklig på grunn av anklagende innlegg fra personer som ikke engang tilhører divisjonen, men som gjerne vil.

Again wise words, mostly, dear well-respected founder, maybe with the exception of "lynch mob", who is quite far from hitting the target, I think. Let´s just leave it here for now, "wikiyatzyleaks" has done it´s job for now, the timing was overripe and had nothing to do with lynching, no-one has been molded in tare and feather, the only thing is the cat being out of the bag now (yeah, that´s the actual expression in english as well!), the public needed to be aware.

It´s like Youssarian, the War pacifist, in "Catch 22" - who is stuck with the classic unsolvable conflict: By pushing forward with details that would convince everyone, we have to trespass accusation boundaries, but we wont do that. Lynch mob? Far from it! And yes, we have judges, I´m well aware, being a key part in that process, but nice for everyone to know, so I´m glad u wrote it. So let´s leave it there for now. If the cheaters wont go or stop after this appeals, then the judges will have to do it the hard and very much more humiliating way.

My last message was a general view on statistics as proof. It is not my view on whether cheating occurs here or not.

I am ready to put my existence on this site on the line and will of course take a hike if I am wrong. But I know i am not.

I trust that this is a democratic enough site for this reality to be surfaced. I will follow all your guidelines, Lobotommy, and hence still not, or ever, step over the "point-blank-accusation-line", but we are all entitled to an opinion. Stratore as well. Especially when it is more than just an opinion.

Maybe Stratore drove it a bit too far, but the essence remains, and unfortunately the essence is 100 % right.

Stats analysis would be a very dodgy proof. Over a huge number of matches you may be able to rule out dice luck, but you can´t rule out differences in tactics. You would have to assume that players a bit below the top level plays tactically on top level. If you do that assumption, I guess the stats analysis would suggest cheating, but only because you´ve built the cheating into the premises.. And the number of cheaters would depend on who you assume is our lowest ranked ´perfect´ tactical player. If it is the top ranked player, we have no cheaters, if it is myself, all of you are cheaters. It would be guesswork masked as science.

I am like Hushovd - I want to play yatzy at this site even if a big minority ended up cheating. Most people doesnt cheat - that is more than enough for me to continue having fun and never, ever cheat here.

...and the REALLY sad thing by saying this, is that the cheaters might be more cautious in the future, i.e. cheat "better"/less transparent. That doesnt matter, really. We have to do something about the root of the problem, and that is the POSSIBILITY of cheating. As long as it exists, I fear someone always will take a go at it, even if we temporarily clean up in some of this mess.

I am one of those who have made the mistake of hinting to others that if they cheat, please stop with it. I will never do that again. It is too easy to cheat now, so my hope that the H in WLOH is enough to prevent it from happening in the future.

Thanks to the judges for working with the problem! And thanks to Lobotommy for this wonderful site.

But I´m a teacher, and i´ve witnessed students trying to cheat for no reason whatsoever. Numerous times. On tests or quizzes that´s not even being evaluated. Believe me; even the ones one would think have high moral standards. It gives them some sort if self-comfort, I guess. There has never been a time with more students being caught for cheating, even at higher levels, than there is now. Why? Well, first of all, society has a way of worshipping flawlessness these days thats really dangerous. I repeat to my students - every week - that, quote: "You can´t be a good doctor before you have killed at least two patients". A bit shocking and humourous, but the essence still stands: Failure is not dangerous, it´s a way of learning. It´s like trying to turn the Titanic - every week, but I´m hoping that it gets stuck on some of ´em, at least. The path of taking shortcuts has never been wider, and unfortunately that´s the case in here as well.

I will not point out accusations here, but during the last seasons, I am more sure of having experienced cheating here than I am of the Pope being catholic.

I rest my case, your honour.

But, who would want to do that? What would be the pleasure? All the fun is to try to beat the opponent by being tactically stronger with a little help from the dices.

I am open to try another app if there is one as good as Yatzyworld (and cheatfree!!!!!!). I also hope the developers will be able to fix the security breech, or even better that there will be a way to discover the cheaters if there are any.

Unfortunately, it is technically possible to cheat in the Yatzy World app. We have no idea whether it happens in the league, but we have appointed judges like we have in the wordfeud leagues, and are working on some solutions. So the league would prefer to use an (preferaably free) yatzy app that does not have security holes and offer two-player invite games, could you help us find one?

What I am certain of, is that a lot of you do not cheat. Cheating is stealing from those who don´t cheat. It creates an unreal league, people who start here with an idea that they are good in a thing get the message that they are not that good, and may give up on something they actually excel at, just because someone needs to egotrip on the cost of others. We have the word honour in our title for a reason. Playing here without honour destroys the league.

All that said, I repeat that we do not know that anyone cheats. Cheat allegations directed towards players should not occur in public. We have judges that you can direct such allegations at.

The two last players will be relegated. If I were to guess, I would say that Sylviapet wins this group.