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WLoH Judge
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Sorry for the delay, I have had rather a long journey today. @Tydfil, I see no slanging match or personal war, I actually find that remark amusing coming from you. I was more than happy to continue my conversation with Monty by email (he contacted me) but after his last comment and no reply to my following two mails I found it necessary to bring it back to the board. One of my emails to him did say we should do this, it was no surprise to him.
You are hereby excluded tydfil. I should of done it a few weeks ago when you messaged a totally false allegation against me on here but as you know I believe in second chances. I rarely give 3rd chances such as the one you received a week ago when making serious insinuations publicly to another player. I have informed Eskil on a number of occasions it may come to this. If he would like me to be judge then you will no longer be a part of this league. This is the busiest WLoH has ever been and I refuse to continue wasting my time in dealing with your interfering and trouble making. This latest ridiculous allegation of yours against me is the last straw. Any further messages on here from you will be ignored and deleted, you have nothing of any value to further offer this league. I doubt you are too worried as you have already stated you are in two minds whether to continue participating or not and have made your unjustified feelings of disgust towards the site owner clear. Ok everyone, I think we can all now enjoy the league far more peacefully together :)
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5/05 2015 04:22:06
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tydfil
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I am resting uneasy. I would like to make it clear that the only posts I am responsible for are ones I made myself. I entered this debate believing it was about 150-0 scores as a result of timed out/resigned games. Now unfinished games appear to have entered the equation. I have sat silent and watched while the ´debate´ has entered the realms of a personal slanging match. @wlohjudge my personal belief is that you should maintain confidentiality for a player unless there is serious abuse or cheating involved. You may well disagree. @monty you can be a touch tedious but not to the extent of having a personal war launched against you. I wish all well this season. @bully if ur there I think I have the ´word of the season´;)
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4/05 2015 23:05:42
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WLoH Judge
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Thank you Snoore for alerting me to an issue I did not initially consider to be a problem with this player.
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4/05 2015 20:46:55
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WLoH Judge
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I have hardly plastered our conversation here Monty. There was no need for your last comment by email so don´t tell me what I should or shouldn´t do. I will do what´s necessary to keep the league running smoothly and make sure players follow the rules. You have obviously changed your tune now we are on the community board. You have now confirmed you will not be viewing the input of results tactically or delaying input. Job done.
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4/05 2015 18:35:26
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monty022
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Judge, thanks for plastering my 1-to-1 email conversation with you all over the community page. You shouldn´t mix the two.
I know if I´m impacted by incomplete games which could influence promotion or relegation to flag them to you.
And I generally record results within 2.4 nanoseconds of the match completing (both regular wins and resignation wins).
I´m not a problem player, I´ll never be a problem player, and I´m not about to become a problem player. I was just seeking clarification on the end of season algorithm that Lobot applies.
And thanks for clarifying that there is no "tactical advantage" at play here. I understand what you have conveyed.
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4/05 2015 10:22:05
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WLoH Judge
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Hi Monty, thanks for the explanation re score entered incorrectly, that´s what I thought probably happened. I welcome this discussion you started, that is not an issue at all and is exactly what this community board is here for.
My concern is in regards to your understanding that no tactics apply to the input of scores for unfinished games. You asked me if after recording a 150-0 result it was possible to change it to the the other option of result when taking 50 points from an opponents score or vice versa. You asked this despite me (along with tydfil and snoore) explaining the games completed tally from resigned games would have no bearing on players movement between divisions. I answered that results should not be changed, once you have taken your choice they should be left. Your last comment to me was ´So long as scores are entered by seasons end then all is cool´. I do not like what this implies. It makes me think you still do not understand what we have been trying to tell you. I don´t think anyone needs to chill as we are all showing a lot of patience in explaining to you. You seem to be having difficulties in understanding how this works and still think there are tactics involved?
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4/05 2015 09:14:01
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monty022
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Lol, well it used to say kebabs and the ocean......I like kebabs if anyone wants to talk about them too, and I plan to retire by the ocean/sea at some point with long walks on the beach with my wife and trusty hound.
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4/05 2015 08:11:48
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monty022
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Chill guys and gals, all I was wanting to better understand was the algorithm that LoBot applies along with the options we have when a player resigns. Just trying to promote some healthy discussion. At the top of this screen, it says this is the forum for discussing kebabs and the rules. I´m doing just that.
Everyone reading this, please complete your games on time and enter scores promptly (and take a screenshot so you have a record - you can delete them after new season starts).
Good luck one and all, cheers!
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4/05 2015 08:08:36
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WLoH Judge
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Thank you to both snoore and tydfil in explaining to Monty in an effort to put his mind at rest. I think we are all in agreement that the status of unfinished games being considered complete is irrelevant. If a situation arises which means a player could benefit with promotion or avoidance of relegation due to automatic scores applied from unfinished games it should be brought to my attention. I can then make sure fairness prevails when the computer program is unable to do this automatically.
Despite further efforts by email with Monty to explain this he still seems to think entering of scores for unfinished games has a tactical aspect. Monty´s last comment to me of ´so long as scores are entered by seasons end then all is cool´ is an implication that he thinks it could be beneficial to have completed games registered over spread. Snoore has already stated there is not any reason to think tactics when registering 150-0 vs taking 50 points from the opponent.
Monty, you really need to grasp this or else it will likely lead to issues....
I will repeat Tydfils last question to Monty. Why do you seem to have a problem with it?
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4/05 2015 03:47:41
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tydfil
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Lol unless am losing the plot which I do not think I am.) Games entered as 150-0 are counted as complete. There appears to be a fashion in US for entering 0-150 as opposed to 150-0 - also counted as completed games. See div 6 US for recent examples on b0th counts re the fashion and games being counted as completed.. @monty an incomplete match is never won - it remains unfinished. If there is an issue you flag it - don´t understand why you have a problem with it?
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3/05 2015 10:08:34
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Snoorre
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@monty022: OK, I can see your concerns. But as far as I can remember that haven´t been an issue in any league in WLoH. And I´m keeping at least half an eye to every league here. ;)
I think that the reason for admin to program the system to say that games with 150-0-results as "not played" is that there are a lot of players that have misread the rules, and register 150-0 if a player is not found, a player is not accepting invites or if time is running out for the season. They don´t understand that in those cases it´s the system that should set the results, and think that they have to to it themselves. If some players register those results and others don´t because they have understood the rules, it would not be right if the players "breaking" the rules benefit from it.
As both the judge and tydfil have stated, the best thing to do if you can see that any results like this is important for the outcome of the group, you should flag it for the judge. It should not be any reason to think tactics when registering 150-0 vs taking 50 points from the opponent. That´s one of many reasons we have the excellent judges we´re lucky to have in WLoH.
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3/05 2015 09:26:06
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monty022
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Sorry, I really need Lobot to clarify one point please. The rules state "Games that have been lost 0-150, are not considered to be completed.". What about games "won" 150-0?
I know this sounds like splitting hairs but the rules only refer to games "lost" 0-150 as not being counted as completed games. Therefore, matches "won" 150-0 are assumed counted as complete? In which case, Player X wins the incomplete match and we can all go back to using the 150-0 maximising spread option without thinking any further. Yes?
If the rule stated matches scored 150-0 are not counted as complete, then I am clear. However, the rules specifically limit it to games lost 0-150 are not counted as complete. Can I get some clarification please?
For the record, I have no issue with any individual, no one has resigned on me recently, and I´m not impacted by incomplete games (although I have been in previous seasons and I raised it with the judge at the time as per standard procedure).
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3/05 2015 09:20:50
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monty022
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Hmmm, tactical reason sounds more sinister than I intended. What I simply meant was most people use the 150-0 option when a player resigns as it maximises the spread. Yet, it may cause you to be deemed to lose incomplete matches at the end of the season.
So it may be a better "tactic" to chose to take 50 points off your opponents score and have the match count as a completed game but not maximising your spread in order to not miss out on potential wins for incomplete games at the end of the season. Naturally this only applies if you are impacted by incomplete matches at seasons end, which happens all too often unfortunately across the league.
Okay, so we seem to have established player Y would be awarded the incomplete match because he has 6 completed games compared to 5 for player X as the 2 resigned games mid season scored 150-0 would not be counted as completed games. Player X would have been better served taking the -50 option and a lesser spread in both games and thereby having 7 completed games recognised.
I am not advocating stalling or delaying games. That was never the point of my query.
All I was trying to have was a discussion about the resignation rule and the 2 scoring options to highlight that maximising your spread by choosing the 150-0 option may not always be the best option. I think 99 % of us choose 150-0 without thinking. Maybe we need to stop and think sometimes.
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3/05 2015 08:34:06
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WLoH Judge
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I don´t think it is possible to program an automatic system which can deal with this eventuality any better than the one Eskil has devised. I do not believe Monty would consider using an unjust loophole tactically so unless he contacts me to report a suspicion about another player there is no issue. I am assuming he is just considering how in theory it could be used tactically. As both tydfil and snoore have stated, any situation like this should be brought to my attention. Players who are able to gather proof as to the efforts they have made in finishing all fixtures will usually be rewarded. This league welcomes all those who are honest, enjoy fair play and are respectful of others. Players who fall into this category are those who normally manage to finish all their games. Not doing so causes problems and is a burden on this league. Players who think they may struggle to complete all games due to predicted lack of time should use the opt out for a season option. If I notice a player is continuously standing to benefit by not finishing games they are at risk of consequences which may include a temporary ban or even permanent exclusion in severe cases.
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2/05 2015 23:50:17
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Snoorre
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Normally it´s not, but if players uses any resigning or automatic results for tactical reasons, there might be an issue. That is not according to the H in WLoH. ;) (That is why I was curious why Monty said that he asked the question for a tactical reason.)
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2/05 2015 21:45:47
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tydfil
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Exactly so |I don´t see that there is an issue?
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2/05 2015 20:53:54
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Snoorre
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@tydfil: Yes, that part is clear. But his question was which player would be awarded the automatic 150-0-win in this case. And the answer is player Y. But of course, any issues like this are to be flagged up to the judge.
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2/05 2015 20:38:39
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tydfil
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´tis clear to me. u flag up if there is an issue. It is straightforward.
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2/05 2015 20:32:34
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Snoorre
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Actually, it´s not that clear... ;)
Monty says that "Player X has completed 7 matches including 2 where opponents resigned mid season". That is not entirely correct. A resigned game does not count as completed. So in this case I actually think that LoBot would give player Y the automatic victory. Something like that happened in the Krudoku-league last season.
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2/05 2015 20:12:54
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tydfil
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The rules explain clearly what the outcome would be.
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2/05 2015 19:55:12
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Snoorre
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@monty022: Why would you ask this for a tactical reason? It is not allowed to use any automatic results to gain a promotion or avoid relegation.
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2/05 2015 19:45:41
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monty022
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lobot, I have a scenario I would like you to assess via your end of season algorithms.
Player X has completed 7 matches including 2 where opponents resigned mid season. Player X scored both those games 150-0 as per the site rules and to maximise spread. The other 5 games have normal match scores.
Player Y has completed 6 normal matches with normal match scores.
The match between player X and player Y remains incomplete at the end of the 2 week season. Who would you award the win to when you finalise all incomplete matches at seasons end?
I´m asking this for a tactical reason but this may also be beneficial to new members unsure of what happens at the end of the season with unfinished matches.
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2/05 2015 06:37:34
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